Forum:Military Standardization
Post 1 The New Republic and Imperial militaries have, for quite a long time, been rather disorganized. It's led to confusion and inappropriate events on the MUSH. No one really seems to know just how many warships they have, or what the idea side has, etc. The war can get pretty weird. So, I say that we get to work on standardizing the two big militaries, get some specifics, etc, for the sake of the story. The intention is to arrive at a safe number of warships and army personnel within the Empire and New Republic, among other statistics, based on their current situation at the end of 15 ABY. I already have a pretty good idea of what the Imperial Military looks like, but I want to hear other people's opinions before stating my own findings. I think it's about time we got this done, to help future engagements and so the story starts making some sense on paper and so forth. Whatever. --Danik Kreldin 09:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC) * This is something that we've been working on in the NR for a while, but especially lately-- cleaning up the Military scene in general, including the wiki articles. Considering that the faction is, however, in the midst of a potential major shakeup right now, I'm not expecting we'll see much change hit the Wiki for a little while yet. There *is* a current intent to at least firm up what we've already got going, but a fair amount of that is in discussion stages still. And, at least for the moment, I'd have to say that the NR's focus is currently on solving issues that need addressing on the MUSH, first. The Wiki will, I believe, follow in its due time after those have been addressed. Wrista 12:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC) ** Wrista is correct. I have been pushing for this for a long time in the NR, and gotten nowhere due to staff problems. These problems are resolving (hopefully) very soon, at which point I will scale down the existing military to reflect the losses incurred by the Blitzkrieg and the Retribution of Coruscant, along with properly defining deployments. I do have a concern, Danik, with listing out the names and classes of every ship, like you're doing with the Imperial First Fleet article. I honestly don't think that is a valuable approach to the wiki experience, because a majority of the players coming here are just going to get overwhelmed by the amount of information. While I think it may be important to list out generalized fleet size, I think it's "overkill" to list every ship's name. I'll also mention that there's an in-game brainstorming session on how to improve the space combat system, which might genuinely document IC fleet sizes via a ZIS-style system. So, even then, the MUSH might actually (shocking!) provide a better system for documenting such things. Now, I'm not saying you should stop your first fleet project, because it's already there, but just that we shouldn't make this a neccessity for the wiki. -- SW1 Kyle 13:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC) * Yes, This is something that badly needs to be done, however it is something that will have to be done on the MUSH and pushed to the Wiki. I don't think it will work very well the other way around. Also, several core systems are being rebuilt(ground combat and space combat), as well as some new strategic systems like an economy. Part of that rebuild will involve establishing more concrete numbers on force size. I know the New Republic Branch Heads are working on their own initiative to establish force size, The Empire is re-establishing it's Order of Battle to fit with the new reality of the MUSH in 16 ABY. But, I am with Kyle and Wrista on this, this really isn't a project for the Wiki as much as something that has to be done on the MUSH, so I would appreciate if all the current Imperial Military procedures, orders of battle, fleet composition, strategic and tactical configurations be left to the appropriate Imperial Faction Staff and Players. When they are ready for the Wiki, I am sure that they will be published here. --ImperialFH 17:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC) **I ultimately decided against putting the name of every ship in the First Fleet. To be honest, though, as I'm sure Prospero can remember, I actually have the name of every ship from the First Fleet that I wrote up at the onset of the Blitzkrieg, to help me calculate numbers and so forth. Morrison wrote up all the ground force attachments, and I have it all saved to a text file. But, it's just too daunting of a task and rather pointless, so I decided not to do it. Rather, I figured it would just be better to get some numbers, not names. I just remember the whole big debate over Tyler's use of 500 Interdictors at Corellia, which some said was impossible, but, really, when one looks at the possible numbers the Empire can deploy, it really isn't. Another thing that people sometimes miss is that the Empire made an overt attempt at securing NR shipyards and did a good job at that - capturing the Sluis Van shipyards, destroying the Mon Cal ones, and later capturing the Corellian ones, leaving the NR rather empty handed. That all should reflect into the numbers, as well. --Danik Kreldin 19:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC) Post 2 I bring two major problems/challenges regarding this topic to the table. First, there is the problem of Misconception of Scale. Two superpowers exist in the Star Wars Galaxy — the New Republic and the Empire. There are several million star systems and a population numbering in the googillions. It goes without saying that there are quantities numbering right up there in that range. The superpowers have undisclosed hundreds of thousands of starships at their disposal, with the ability to generate hundreds more to replace the hundreds that they lose to age, attrition, circumstance, accident, or battle. Battles between the two giants might be small, remote skirmishes involving ship-v-ship or several-hundred-deep-fleets slugging it out, depending on the location and strategic value/impact. By contrast, the MUSH has a finite amount of players (for sake of argument, what, a hundred?) with, let's be frank and honest here, limited creativity. There are some players that understand that there are, indeed, thousands upon thousands of starships and vehicles and worlds and soldiers that can be followed, at any one time, in the storyline. Then there are some players that are extremely narrowminded and only see the ship/person that's in front of them, and their whole world (or their part of the story) revolves around just that one ship or just that one world. However, scale dictates otherwise — a single fighter cannot take on a whole Star Destroyer; a single hovertank cannot take on a whole division of AT-ATs; a single planet cannot take on the whole of the Empire (notice how the Empire is _always_ the bad guy. ;) ). This is why we Caspians have gone to such annoying lengths to document every ship and resource we have — we have to, to keep the sense of scale relative and realistic. The two superpowers shouldn't have to do that, but there has to be awareness of scale. For example, if we were to consribe this to a matter of scale, the Empire would have, for this MUSH storyline, a fleet of 200 warships (arbitrary example number) called the First Fleet, with the understanding that there are hundreds of thousands of other starships in the Galaxy in dozens of other fleets. Second, there is a problem of arcaneness and antiquation. There is a woeful lack of updated, innovative designs in the starship "bank", and what seems to be a lack of desire to change or improve. That's rather pathetic, in my opinion. It shouldn't be that difficult to bring new starship designs into the system. Similarly, it shouldn't be next-to-impossible to implement a means of taking existing ship "shells" (hulls, code objects) and rename them to suit a new ship as a new storyline / plotline requires. For example, we in Caspia have a H'cane-class carrier object and a Sh'water-class cruiser object. For one TP, we have the Sh'water named the Audace. Well, a TP comes up that requires a "new, different" ship. So, we take the Sh'water object, rename it Anubis, and go out on the TP with it. Besides that, in 15 years, there should be some degree of innovation and progression in terms of technology, and there should be new ships and vehicles here and there. Now, granted, it seems that throughout even the Expanded Universe (EU) material, there's an appreciation for the "classics", and even though new things are introduced, the authors go right back to the usuals (X-Wings, TIE Interceptors, YT-1300's, etc.). I may have gotten off on a tangent, but my point is that there should be a means of updating / improving the technology available in the MUSH, and there doesn't seem to be right now. Also, we need to keep in mind that this is a MUSH about storytelling, not a competition to be won. -- Hawke / Rtufo 22:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC) * Speaking just about the Wiki here, I agree that spelling everything out in detail for the superpowers would be just impractical. If the faction staff want to come up with ballpark figures for relative fleet sizes, and then post it here, that's cool. As far as R&D and "wish list" ships are concerned, that discussion is probably outside the scope of this wiki. --Lolkje 00:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ** Agreed, and agreed. -- SW1 Kyle 14:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC) * I agree with Hawke about scale and proportion and remember in the past, folks would just start crying foul when you mention the numbers of ships and forces needed to attack a planet say Coruscant with it's unfathomable population. I would bring up battles like Iwo Jima, where close to 115,000 men and hundreds of ships were used to attack a small island occupied by 22,000 entrenched defenders. What would the scale have to be for a planet with millions of defenders and then expect it to be occupied in weeks. However we can't have planetary invasions last years or there would never be much shift in the galactic scale. IMHO it has always been an issue that Star Wars MUSH try and represent then /entire/ Galaxy rather than a smaller chunk of it, like Brak Sector or Minos Cluster did. It to me seems to isolate some players into being promoted away from their collegues and has too many worlds to really support the small population. But that is where we are. I remember back in the day, each side pretty much had a force make up for several ranks of systems. From high value systems with huge fleets to back water systems that had much smaller forces tasked with defending them. The best course of action might be to update that system again and assign each system a value. However like I stated earlier, this is something that has to originate on the MUSH, with the various organizations players deciding what their force makeup will be and then the admin and wizards agreeing that the number of ships/men is accurate. From recent talks with various wizards, the primary hurdle to implementing new ships/classes is the amount of physical work involved with the current system, Dspace is not very kind to creating and developing new ship classes.I believe that the rebuilding of space combat might lead to making ship design, creation, and modification easier to implement. --ImperialFH 02:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ** Actually, implementing new ships into DSpace is very, very easy. In fact, I created an entirely original fleet with dozens of different designs for my short-lived Sorrow of war MUSH using DSpace, and they worked beautiful - not a trace of SW in them. All it takes is about ten minutes to come up with stats for the ship, a description, and then another five or so minutes adding those stats to the ship db and assigning them weapon slots that match up to whatever weapon you want in the weapon db. Couldn't be more easy. Also, DSpace is very customizable, as well. On my old MUSH, I implemented two entirely original systems into DSpace (add-ons of sorts), that made flying and fighting in the atmosphere possible, as well as the ability to fly around in the atmosphere and land in different cities, as well as a "jump gate hyperspace" system (for anyone who ever saw Cowboy Bebop). Also, I had to reconfigure it entirely to meet a non-SW system, but overall the process was easy. So, don't knock DSpace - it can be made to do many, many things. I'm sorry to say this, but it is just laziness that there hasn't been any new warship designs. I recall at least three separate occassions where we were expecting to get new warships based on stats I sent in, only to see nothing ever happen. If I recall, they were stats for the Gauntlet-class Star Destroyer, Tector-class Star Destroyer, TIE Avenger, TIE Defender, V-wing, K-wing, the advanced X-wings, and several of the New Class warships. I might still have those stats somewhere. --Danik Kreldin 03:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ** Precisely. To get new technology (ships, etc.) on this MUSH is a challenge of changing minds and attitudes in the admin, whomever they are. There is no shortage of stat sheets, descriptions, and support for new objects, but it appears (if an admin would like to refute this, by all means, do so; I'm not judging one admin per se, but the following statement is based on the perception) that the admin couldn't/can't be bothered to put forth the effort to input any new, proposed ships. And, yes, this issue is relevant to the Wiki, because the explanation (excuse?) that SWINFO is clunky and takes alot of time and effort to input in (it does) no longer holds weight — the Wiki is far easier and dynamic to post stat sheets. Shouldn't even need SWINFO any more. -- Hawke / Rtufo 04:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC) *** EDIT FOR CLARITY: Almost as easy as the Wiki would be REPLACING the SWINFO ship files with a softcoded command that reads the ship stats from their DSpace attribs and plunks them in the right spot in a "SWINFO"-esque template.--Lolkje 04:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC) **** SWINFO can't be changed by a softcoded command. SWINFO is a .txt file on the MUSH's server, located in the pennmush/game/txt/ directory. So the only way to change it is by going onto the server and rewriting the .txt file itself. There's no way to do it from the game. While that does sound easy, trust me, it isn't - after several years of being a MUSH Director, I can tell you that writing/editing the NEWS and SWINFO files are a real pain in the ass. --Danik Kreldin 04:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ***** Lolkje's point has nothing to do with SWINFO. It has to do with ditching the cumbersome idea of using SWINFO to document this stuff, and instead, making a self-sustaining soft-coded system on the game that does it. Then, Wizards don't have to update the SWINFO .txt files, instead, once they are done with a new ship design, the plug its dbref into the list, and the softcoded command recognizes it automatically. This, my friends, is what we call "intelligence". -- SW1 Kyle 14:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ****** Think +e/ships with stats. -- Xerxes 16:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC) **** Also, the point I was trying to make is not about SWINFO or NEWS, but rather that the actual process of creating new ships (getting them coded and what not) is very simple and takes very little amount of time. If Cypher wanted me to, I'm more than willing to supply the stats for said ships and converting them to D6 use - hell, by the time I'm done, all you would have to do is copy and paste it to the MUSH where the Dspace objects are and there you have it. All you would have to do is go to your friendly Ugnaught and get it rolling off the assembly lines. --Danik Kreldin 05:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ***** I think that having the SWINFO files correct is of great importance. The Wiki is great because it is a living resource, but the SWINFO to me is the baseline. It is the first thing most players on the MUSH look to for information. While probably most of the history and faction files can look to the Wiki. Stuff that doesn't change that often should be SWINFO first, and then the Wiki reflects the information that is there. Part of the process for any development cycle is documentation. SWINFO is the primary source. Then the Wiki can be updated to reflect the SWINFO. I know a large part of the drive in creating the Wiki was to allow us players to take control of updating information and expanding it beyond what the MUSH can do. But some statistical and game mechanics information the MUSH does need to be the leader on. Ships are one of them. I also don't think it is productive to finger point at the Wizzies and say so and so is lazy or that it is a matter of X'' or ''Y when while it would be great to have new ships or in the case of Caspar have their ships be useful rather than the garbage they currently are there are a lot of issues to work out and the SWINFO files are an important part of the equation. --ImperialFH 07:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ****** Danik is 100% right about the SWINFO files though. I was a MUSH Wizard as well, with access to the game database and all of that. I updated news files. It is cumbersome and takes a lot longer than it would be to just write a new attribute on a MUSH, or make a wiki article, and the MUSH Director will understandably only trust a slim few with access to the server. Lolkje's idea is actually the most sensible one and it serves everyone's wishes here. -- SW1 Kyle 14:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ******* Which is why Lolkje is my hero. She is wise in the ways of such things. I really don't care if it is hard code or soft code, but the user files in the game, be they SWINFO or a softcoded version like +e/ships needs to be the gold standard. I tend to default back to thinking like a Historian. I consider the MUSH to be the primary source and the Wiki to be the secondary source. That doesn't mean it is less important but as the primary changes, the secondary should reflect that, not the other way around. --ImperialFH 16:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ***** I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the your point about the ease of creating new ships, Danik. I think Hawke's point is very valid. The code itself isn't the primary barrier to new ships being created. That part is relatively easy. The hard part is deciding which are the right ships to create. The balance and theme issues are where things get tricky. Just because we can create new ships doesn't necessarily mean we should. -- Xerxes 16:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ******It was decided upon that the new Imperial fighter, to replace the Interceptor, would be the TIE Avenger. I had the stats written up based on various RPG sources, and they were approved. The Defender was also written up, but there was some concern about it being implemented. The idea was to keep them as very rare instances, kept in reserve for elite units. The NR would receive one of the new X-wing models, the T-65J3 X-wing. I had also written up stats for the E-wing Series III, but there was some concern they would be too powerful, like the Defender. As for capital ships, the Empire was to get a new Star Destroyer, likely a Tector-class or Gauntlet-class, both dedicated battleships (and thus lacking hangars to carry TIEs). I had also written up stats for the Dominator-class Star Destroyer, and two of the Imperial battlecruisers. The NR would receive one or several of the New Class vessels; Majestic-class heavy cruiser, Defender-class assault carrier, the Endurance-class fleet carrier, and the Nebula-class Star Destroyer. In addition to the New Class vessels, they would also get the MC90, the Viscount-class Star Defender, and the Mediator-class Star Battlecruiser. I just found the .zip file containing all the new ship designs plus their stats... I can post them here for people to take a look at. The stats may not be 100% correct, so it'd be nice to discuss it in a committee. But, yeah, I had sent all them to the admin at several points, there was a big thing where we were all expecting to get some of the ships, but nothing ever happened. --Danik Kreldin 19:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC) *******Well there have been several attempts at adding new ships and for the most part the decisions have always gone back towards maintaining an 'iconic' feel to the Empire and New Republic. That means keeping the NR away from the 'New' class vessels as well as Star Destroyers in general. At the end of the day, most of the ships that have come out of the EU are wildly unbalanced. The Empire seems to be geared on bigger and bigger dreadnaughts. Personally I like to see smaller ships, Like the Vindicator-class or Enforcer-class designed on the Interdictor cruiser chasis and the modular Strike-class Cruiser. The I2SD is a well designed vessel and frankly I am quite happy with it being the centerpiece of the Imperial war fleet. As for fighters, the TIE Defender is so over the top twinky, It has never been seriously considered for being a new fighter. The Avenger rubs up against a similar border but it has a few serious flaws that balance out it's strengths. The E-Wing was a blip on the radar in the EU and never quite measured up. I personally think it is as unbalanced as the TIE Defender. Cap ships mostly fall into the same category. Rather than just through tons of new ship designs out and pick and choose from them, I prefer to find places that the Imperial fleet needs something and find the perfect vessel to fit that need, also there really needs to be work done in making existing ships, like the Escort Carrier, Neb-B, and Lancer viable. So I think as things go forward with Space Combat, we will see new dynamics come into play and that will have a greater effect on the ships the orgs and factions want going into the future. --ImperialFH 20:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ******* "...I prefer to find places that the Imperial fleet needs something and find the perfect vessel to fit that need..." I've traditionally avoided the new ships discussions (just not my interest), but I found this comment interesting. Don't you think that the weaknesses in your military somewhat serve to define the faction / org, like strengths and weaknesses define characters? The Empire might be more geared toward capships and invasions. The NR might have better fighters for hit-and-run type attacks. Instead of plugging those holes, might it not be a good idea to maintain them? RL-istically, I see the wisdom in addressing military deficiencies, but from the standpoint of creating an interesting story...? Just a thought. -- Xerxes 20:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ******** My bad, that is not exactly how I intended that to come across, Xerxes. I agree that the factions should have weakpoints in their tactics/doctrines that sort of define them. What I meant is more in a physical sense. Right now the Empire doesn't have a ship between a medium Strike-class Cruiser and a Victory-class Star Destroyer. We need heavier cruisers to put in systems that might not have a Star Destroyer assigned to their defense and we don't want a bunch of smaller cruisers there because it can be just as daunting to have to go against 1 ISD as 10 Strikes. Also it gives a chance for a larger variety of scenes when you have a wider range of ships available to pluck and drop into a battle. So that is what I mean by filling needs rather than saying the Empire needs xxx platform to do rebel style hit and fade. --ImperialFH 21:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ********* And, I don't mean to suggest that only the Empire does this. That quote just really fit and summed up what I think a lot of the ship-people do. I think that there exists, to a degree, a competitive, escalation mentality. The NR is getting a new fighter. What new fighter is the Empire going to get? I know that's fair, but fair doesn't always provide the most interesting outcome. I know I'm guilty of the same thing. I've looked at the ships list and thought, "we need a better capship to compare with such and such" or "a better fighter would put us on par with so and so". There's an impulse to fill the perceived gaps and create a complete military, and I think everybody does that at least a little. As we're thinking about these topics, I just think we need to make sure we play to our weaknesses as much as our strengths. -- Xerxes 21:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC) Addendum: Talking about new ships doesn't seem to be connected to much plot-wise. It's often more about having new toys than steering the plot in any particular direction. Couldn't we give the NR a new fighter (without compensation to the Empire), and make that the reason that the GCW swings in their favor? -- Xerxes 21:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ********** I doubt any new fighter or cap ship is going to single-handedly have a huge impact on the war. Maybe a short term effect, but eventially we will have to have relative parity. That being said, it doesn't mean that everybody has to get their new stuff at the same time. That the new NR fighter can't be brought in as the result of the Empire fielding a new ship or a sudden thrust of Mon Cal Cruisers at a core Imperial sector isn't countered by a new class of Heavy Cruiser being rushed into production (With some of the pitfalls of doing so) to counter and stem the push. TPs can be constructed around the obtaining of the new vessels rather than just say these were always here but in the background and now they arent. Say that the NR has to capture one of the new Imperial fighters and pull it apart to figure out what changes the new X-Wing needs to be able to fight it. Or that there is a R&D platform in neutral space where there is a new form of power dynamo that allows a SF reactor to generate x% more power per cycle and both factions can race to get it. Just getting the equipment itself can be a huge factional plot or a MUSH plot where the various factions compete over some enhanced resources that could help rush their new vessel to the battle front first. The potential is really endless. --ImperialFH 02:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC) *The Republic already uses Republic-class Star Destroyers and has utilized stolen Imperial Star Destroyers since the very beginning of the Republic. It's nothing new for them to have Star Destroyers. However, in the current state of affairs, it would be a little more difficult for them to construct the new ships - their economy is in shambles and I would imagine the New Republic Credit is at an all-time low. What the NR should be doing at this point (as with the whole roll-back to the Rebellion-style era) is utilizing the same tactics they did during the Rebellion - the Rebellion was small, and unable to manufacture weapons or warships on their own, and what they did was receive resources, supplies, and ships from sympathic "Imperial" worlds. While under Imperial control, and the citizens of said worlds Imperial, the leaders of the planets were sympathetic to the Rebel cause and donated to the Rebellion under the Empire's nose. This is what kept the Alliance afloat. The average citizen around 0-4 ABY didn't like the Rebellion - they saw it as a terrorist organization trying to upset the order and security and bring it back to the days of the Clone Wars. The Alliance High Command knew this. So they couldn't rely on popular support - they had virtually none, especially as you went more towards the Core. Imperial Intelligence and COMPNOR were very effective in painting the Rebellion as terrorists. So what the NR should be doing is working on plots to get resources and supplies while avoiding Imperial patrols and spies keeping a watch over the area, because at this because they can't hope to regain territory. To be honest, I have no idea how the Rebellion is suppose to strike back at the Empire. I mean, we built up this plot "yeah let's crush the NR and they'll go back to Rebellion and then they'll come back sometime later" but with really no idea how they were suppose to come back. The Empire has been built up as a nearly unstoppable force at this point. There's no Death Stars to capture the Emperor at, etc. What can they hope for? Another Civil War? Personally, I think the best idea would have been to have the Empire lose from the get-go... completely collapse and revert to a small state like the Imperial Remnant, with several dozen or so Star Destroyers. Think Thrawn's armada. Surgical strikes to undermine the Republic, etc. I dunno, I'm just going on and on here. --Danik Kreldin 22:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC) Post 3 Anyway, by 4 ABY (but before Endor), the Empire had several hundred thousand Star Destroyers (I can back this up if anyone wants to hear how), and millions upon millions of other warships and starships. The trick is figuring out how many were lost during the Imperial Civil War, how many Valak was able to consolidate, and how many were later lost in the subsequent second and third civil wars, and, of course, from the various campaigns. The Empire now spans most of the galaxy, and with control over most of the shipyards, I reckon it still has a nice numerical advantage. The NR, on the other hand, had only about twenty Mon Cal cruisers by the time of Endor, and several hundred more ships of various classes. The trick to them is figuring how many they were able to build between taking Coruscant and the beginning of Valak's "Great Campaign," when they took a heavy beating and eventually lost all their shipyards, and, of course, losses from the Blitzkrieg, which are sure to be pretty heavy. --Danik Kreldin 05:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC) * Well, step number one is really to decide how much each side has, as Danik has suggested. Step number two is to make sure the NR and Imperial Faction Heads STAY in communication about what is happening on the galactic scale, off-camera, behind the scenes, and thusly updating whatever in-game or wiki articles neccessary so that their players understand the scope of their postings. An Imperial Commander actually knowing that he has a X-hundred-thousand destroyers ready to back him up, with a production capability of Y-destroyers-per-month and a recruitment capability of Z-thousand crew per month is going to affect his RP choices. Similarly, a NR/Rebel Commander who knows that X-industry is secretly providing Y-amount of ships and they are recruiting/defecting Z-hundred crew per month is going to directly affect how many risks he's going to take. This is why having these numbers squared away is important, and until there's an in-game coded system that can reflect all of this, it will be up to the Faction Heads to make sure it stays up to date. Naturally, to a lesser degree, the CDU and CSA faction heads will need to do this as well, and the NR's plague of FacHead problems will need to be resolved. -- SW1 Kyle 14:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ** Keeping the big picture in mind and how it impacts individual scenes and the course of the overall story are very important. I'm not sure we need to work everything out to the suggested mathematical specificity. I can see how the formula approach would appeal to the stats-minded, right-brainers that most of us are, but it's not the only way to do it. I think it's important to figure out where the major powers are at, in at least relative terms, and then figure out how that can change? Is it something that can be worked on by individuals on- or off-camera via a coded system or RP, or do those relative strengths only change according to large-scale plotlines and in OOC-ly scripted ways? -- Xerxes 20:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)